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Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:30 am
by Bio Hazzard
So I was FPVing at this park in cannon hill, which I have been flying in for the past week when I came to find out some rather unpleasant knowledge. When I was flying there were some kite guys at the park, one of which also flies helis when the winds down. When I had finished packing my gear the kite guy had a chat to me and gave me a friendly warning, apparently brisbane city council bans flying at parks citywide. And to top that off theres a rc club across the road, apparently the club has to fork over $300 a month to use the field and when they see others flying "for free" at the community park they tend to rat out and call the cops. The kite guy told me the cops showed up last time he was flying his heli and now he tends not to fly there. So my question is what's the deal with flying RC toys in brisbane?? Will I get done in if someone sees my axn at the park? In Melbourne I remember it was along the lines off "You can only fly RC models at parks if you get council approval" - no one did, and no one asked it was pretty simple. I would join a club and even wanted to a one point, but after Bruce's experiences I'm less than keen.

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:18 am
by Bio Hazzard
After doing some research on RC Groups, I've found that indeed ppl have been fined for flying at Murarrie Recreation Ground. Now all I have to do is find a new place to fly :(

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:07 pm
by Aussie Joe
It does not matter where you fly in Australia, you must allways get land holders permission to fly (Australian law) and follow all the "CASA 101 rules".

PS, please don't shoot the messenger.

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:46 am
by Bio Hazzard
Thanks for reply, I guess I'm just use to having those places back in Melbourne where you could go without anyone asking questions or complaining.

"CASA has classified model aircraft by take off weight (excluding fuel) as follows:
(a) less than 100 grams - exempt;"

Time for a ultra-light FPVer?

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:29 am
by Bio Hazzard
Also after reading through "CASA 101 rules" the only real mention of flying sites thats relevant to my situation i:

"The operator of a model aircraft weighing over 100 grams is required to obtain
permission before flying a model above 400 ft AGL within controlled airspace or within 3
nautical miles of an aerodrome. While this rule means that a model aircraft may be flown
above 400 ft AGL clear of these areas, there are advantages in seeking approval for a
permanent model aircraft operating area. Publication of the details of a model aircraft
operating area means that other users of airspace will be advised where there is potential
for conflict with model aircraft."

So if I'm not " within controlled airspace or within 3
nautical miles of an aerodrome." then I can fly my planes? Also if the council designates an area of land to be shared and used by all of the community (i.e. a park) does that mean, that unless otherwise stated (i.e. sign indicating rc planes are banned) I should be able to fly at such place? For example if the land of the law doesn't forbid per say something absurd like eating 5 kg of cake, wouldn't that mean that I could eat 5 kg of cake in a public place like a park as long as me doing so doesn't impede on others from using the park as they wish without having to go out of my way to get permission to do so from the council - whereas if I did the same on private property I would?? So to furthermore simplify my question if it isn't illegal and doesn't impede on others using the park I should be able to do without getting explicit permission from the council?

And also the reason for not wanting to join a club is I'm not so keen to $300 a yr and pick up additional regulations just to fly a toy plane :/
If anyone can help clarify this muddle of rules it would be much appreciated!

Thanks, Bio

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:39 am
by cynr100
Bit of a trap what you have quoted there:
"The operator of a model aircraft weighing over 100 grams is required to obtain permission before flying a model above 400 ft AGL within controlled airspace or within 3
nautical miles of an aerodrome."
The assumption of obtaining permission from the "landholder" is wrong in this regard, the permission needs be sought from CASA (101.030(1))

101.400 Operation of model aircraft outside approved areas.
"A person may operate a model aircraft outside an approved area above 400 feet AGL only if he or she: (a) keeps it in sight; and (b) keeps it clear of populous areas"

No mention is made in the regulations regarding land owners permission, this however may be a condition of any applicable insurance cover.

This document is an advisory, to date I believe it is still a current advisory ... 101c03.pdf
do not treat it as a Regulations/Rules, page 1 includes this "advisory"
"Advisory Circulars are intended to provide recommendations and guidance to illustrate a means but not necessarily the only means of complying with the Regulations, or to explain certain regulatory requirements by providing interpretative and explanatory material.
Where an AC is referred to in a ‘Note’ below the regulation, the AC remains as guidance material.
ACs should always be read in conjunction with the referenced regulations"

Bio, you quoted 8.2.1 from the Advisory, scarey stuff if you treat it as Regulation/Rule, only part of it is as stated in 101.400.
then you have this following and I have highlighted the operative word
8.2.2 Try to fly at a site which is already established rather than trying to obtain individual permission. The model associations are listed in Appendix K and should be able to advise you of local sites.
This does not prevent you from finding your own flying site as long as you obey the two magic numbers 3nm & 400Ft AGL.

A stated Regulation/Rule will carry a penalty point value at it's conclusion, these are the ones that are enacted in law. You can not be charged for operating against or outside an Advisory, only if you are acting in contravention of a Regulation.

I made that all sound too easy and it probably is, if not for

101.395 Keeping model aircraft away from people

(1) A person must not operate a model aircraft over a populous area at a height less than the height from which, if any of its components fails, it would be able to clear the area.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

So be aware of this definition

101.025 Meaning of populous area

For this Part, an area is a populous area in relation to the operation of an unmanned aircraft or rocket if the area has a sufficient density of population for some aspect of the operation, or some event that might happen during the operation (in particular, a fault in, or failure of, the aircraft or rocket) to pose an unreasonable risk to the life, safety or property of somebody who is in the area but is not connected with the operation.

So if someone really wanted to shut you down that would be the one and I believe penalty points are about $75 each.......ouch.

That's the CASA bit, now the Council OR "publicly held lands".

It would be dangerous to assume that if there was no sign then "it's orright Jack". Councils have a multitude of Laws and By Laws, some cover all and some are selective to a particular situation. In any legal aspect ignorance is not a defence, it may influence the penalty if deemed that a reasonable attempt had been made to ascertain a position. This could only be tested in a court, if you have the time and money.
In your case I would ask a directed question of the Council ergo "Can I fly a remote control electric powered aircraft weighing XXXg at "Bio's Favourite" Park" and keep trying different parks until you get a yes.

I fly at a sports complex owned by private school, Council or CASA permission is not required however we have to vacate if others have prebooked. A local resident (heli pilot) liked to buzz the field when we are flying to interrupt our enjoyment. His excuse was that the field was part of his flight path to his helipad, If we didn't cease and desist a report would be made to CASA and charges would be laid. Following the last "buzzing" a complaint was made, by one of our group to the local airport authority, apparently the heli pilot was advised not to stray outside his designated flight corridor again. He hasn't been seen or heard of again. I digress.

See if you can get permission from a private land holder eg school, church, cattle yard, gun club or even a business. If they say yes and your not within 3nm of an aerodrome and keep it under 400ft AGL in controlled airspace you can keep making those wild videos of yours :D above all be safe.

Just a thought, add some floats and use the Brisbane River. Flying boats used to dock at Bretts Wharf, what harm is a little foamie going to do.

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:40 pm
by Bio Hazzard
Man a lot of information to take in. Well it looks like its basicly being held down to getting permission from the landowner or the council. I guess I'm just going to need to find someone who will give me permission to fly on their land now. Btw is insurance a legal issue in any sense (or can I fly without insurance?)

cynr100 wrote:Just a thought, add some floats and use the Brisbane River. Flying boats used to dock at Bretts Wharf, what harm is a little foamie going to do.

Is there any advantage legally in flying over the river. I mean is the process of being allowed to fly any eaiser?

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:18 pm
by cynr100
Not having insurance is not going to prevent you from flying, conversely having insurance is not going to prevent you from having an accident.
It may be a condition imposed as part of any permission granted but it is not a CASA regulatory requirement. Assess your risk, understand your liability. If you have house and/or contents insurance check with your insurer if the public liability coverage (if any) covers your hobby. If it does why feed extra money into the Beast.
One of the greatest rip offs in the insurance industry is over insuring, like flood insurance if you live on Mt Cootha.

I meant the floats as a bit of a joke, however I remembered that flying boats used the Hamilton Reach as a launch/landing area. I did a quick search around and could find no info not even a hint of who has power over the Brisbane River in this regard. There is a code of conduct (not regulatory) put out by the Maritime Safety Board but there is no mention of aircraft or RC models.
The Council has no control over the river confines, the MSB has no regulation prohibiting and as long as you satisfy CASAs' 3nm and 400ft AGL you should be good.
I would do an in depth investigation first then get a dingy for water recoveries :D

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:27 pm
by Bio Hazzard
Oh, lol. Wouldn't want any water in my bixler 2 :lol: I've done some checking and apparently one of the low key hidden fields I fly at is actually owned by a private school, I just didn't know it because the school is actually on the other side of the creek. They actually own like 5 different full sized fields and barely use that field in particular. I've had an "encounter" with a teacher there before when I was packing up my stuff he didn't really mind, now I just need to get that put down in a more formal sense stating I'm good to fly there.

Re: FPV bixler 2

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:35 pm
by cynr100
Front the headmaster with a flight plan, safety plan, area management plan and any other type of plan you can think of. Maybe a student training session, offering something in return is always a good starter. Get that foot in the door and act professionally, you'll end up with your own private field :mrgreen: :mrgreen: