Everyone please look at this

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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby lesterpk » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:10 pm

RCModelReviews wrote:The MFNZ mailing list seems to have been put into "moderated" mode in the wake of the revelations of today. They clearly don't want anyone asking awkward questions.


No Bruce, as the email to the list has stated, its gone into moderation mode to prevent the personal attacks and language that appears some people feel the need to use about the situation. The thought police aren't out but the manners police are.

On that topic, you replied to the email from Dave Green as though he was Dave Wright from MFNZ. Take a minute to read the address so you get the right guy yourself, you've publicly taken him to task for not replying to a letter that wasn't addressed to him.

Les.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby Hallmark » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:05 pm

lesterpk wrote:
RCModelReviews wrote:The MFNZ mailing list seems to have been put into "moderated" mode in the wake of the revelations of today. They clearly don't want anyone asking awkward questions.


No Bruce, as the email to the list has stated, its gone into moderation mode to prevent the personal attacks and language that appears some people feel the need to use about the situation. The thought police aren't out but the manners police are.

On that topic, you replied to the email from Dave Green as though he was Dave Wright from MFNZ. Take a minute to read the address so you get the right guy yourself, you've publicly taken him to task for not replying to a letter that wasn't addressed to him.

Les.


Oh Les your first post was going so well until you clicked on 'submit'.

Personal attacks by email? Wow virtual violence all because MFNZ and the local council are a bunch of lying tossers? :lol:

We need to be perfectly clear that if you throw mud some will stick, but shutting the gate after the horse has bolted is not going to change the fact that what's been said can't be undone and there's no time like the present to sit back and wait for the dust to settle... You're talking rubbish so I thought I would join in too. :mrgreen:

This is probably the worst place you could be looking to write such drivel and then actually post it. So who do you represent, the council, MFNZ or the fun police??? :|

I sent an email to MFNZ two weeks ago and not one of the grumpy old farts replied - imagine my surprise!

:shock: :o :? :roll:

Great piece Bruce keep stuffing it down their throats, pratts!
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby lesterpk » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:36 pm

Yep, figured posting here could be in the lions den so to speak, but thought some rumours should be stopped as to reasons why and wanted to correct Bruce on his mistake. Sorry to have bothered you. No I dont represent anyone but myself, in fact I'm not even a MFNZ member these days so have no dice in this except to see the truth.

You say I'm talking rubbish, I say that I stand 100% behind every word I wrote in my first post.
Here is the text from the newsgroup explaining the reason for the switch back to moderation:

Hi all,
Just to let you know we have put the list back onto moderated status.
We have done this in order to prevent material that is of an offensive
manner or a personal attack on another member coming through to the list.
We will not be moderating your thoughts or opinions provided they are
given in a polite manner.
Kind regards,
Gypsy Stockley
NZMAA List Moderator


And Bruce publicly replied (bolding mine) to someone not connected with MFNZ Council and said:

yet the council said you contacted them with allegations <snip> and
And, since you have not replied to our formal request for details of the alleged complaints

So I politely pointed out to him that he got the wrong guy.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby RCModelReviews » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:25 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Gypsy -- and I do see that a bunch of new comments did appear this morning -- which is great.

However, you can surely understand that people were wondering (in light of the questionable veracity of anything MFNZ says after seemingly being caught lying in that TV piece) why the flow of messages was suddenly stopped at 7:45pm without any notification -- and not restored until a few hours later.

Given the way that MFNZ has behaved in this matter - it would not be unreasonable for anyone to suggest that the administration of the organisation had decided to take direct control and shut down the debate before it really got started.

The core question still has not been addressed either:

Why didn't MFNZ first approach the SWMAC to discuss any alleged complaints against the club and its flying -- before involving the airfield owner and CAA and not giving the SWMAC any chance what so ever to put their side of the matter?

This is the course of natural justice and should be what *any* club ought to expect from its national body. I think you can understand why some people feel somewhat aggrieved by the way this matter is handled. The SWMAC has been found guilty of unspecified offenses and MFNZ wont' even tell us what we're guilty of.

I think perhaps the real reasons for (or a significant contributing factor to) MFNZ's behaviour in this matter is in something you've mentioned before on another list and extends far beyond anything related to the club or its activities.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby lesterpk » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:23 pm

Its Les actually, not Gypsy, I even signed my name on the first post.

How do you know CAA didnt already know before the MFNZ letter? The letter clearly says "NZ CAA have advised us of their concerns, as have other users." So CAA already knew about it and had come to MFNZ. In another RC forum at least one member who is also a full size pilot said "thats correct - CAA received complaints from many full scale pilots (I know as I was one of them)" . Now this could be exaggeration but I would wager this pilot has made a complaint, if not others.
If I were you I'd be filing a OIA request on CAA for copies of complaints relating to model aircraft at Tokoroa but that can/will take 20 working days.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby lesterpk » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:00 am

This time it is Gypsy posting with Les' login.

The flow of messages stopped because my kids got home from school (Western Australian time) I guess if you know my four year old that could be considered sinister. :-) All messages received before 4am NZ time went out before I went to bed at midnight. And then we got caught up this morning when we got up 4 hours after you lot. I hate the way moderation before my time used to make the flow of the list dis-jointed and annoying and so I endeavor to get things out relatively quickly. With the time difference since we moved it's a little more tricky so I'll thank-you for your patience.

And as I said to you in a direct email last night: If I was asked by the NZMAA to moderate the list in any manner other than to restrict obscenities and personal attacks I would resign as a moderator about 2 seconds after emailing the list to let them know what the hell was going on.

Cheers, Gypsy

PS We're off to Story time at the library mid-morning so if there's another lull you'll know why.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby lesterpk » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:32 am

By the way if any of you are interested you can read the messages from the NZMAA list and the NZJetlist online as the archives are public. It will perhaps help to give a more balanced perspective as to how the NZ modelling community sees this issue. I think these links will work:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nzjetlist/messages

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NZMAA-News/messages

Regards,

Gypsy
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby bmsweb » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:31 am

The NZMAA refused to comment! I think that says enough. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong, but I clearly understand where Bruce is coming from but have no idea why NZMAA is hiding . . you must see and understand how that looks?

Also just a tip you know you can both have your own Login and usernames don't you?
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby RCModelReviews » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:56 am

lesterpk wrote:How do you know CAA didnt already know before the MFNZ letter? The letter clearly says "NZ CAA have advised us of their concerns, as have other users."

Well TV3 spoke to CAA yesterday and they said that there were no complaints registered against the fliers at the SWMAC.

If they were in error and there *have* been complaints, I know who they will have been from. There is one local who has openly stated his intent to rid the field of RC models. He is also the guy who physically assaulted Ron at the field a few weeks ago after we waited patiently for him to finish deliberately flying circuits with touch-and-goes in his microlite on a Sunday morning when the club was lined up and waiting to fly.

Of course nobody from MFNZ has approached the SWMAC for their side of the story have they?

Also, when I spoke to Dave Wright, he said the "complaints" from CAA were actually "concerns" by Rex Kenny (sports and recreational manager for CAA) that the SWMAC might be damaging the reputation of the hobby.

Once again -- MFNZ seems to be wildly misrepresenting (to put it diplomatically) the facts in this issue..

In another RC forum at least one member who is also a full size pilot said "thats correct - CAA received complaints from many full scale pilots (I know as I was one of them)" . Now this could be exaggeration but I would wager this pilot has made a complaint, if not others.

Then let him tell us all about it. When, where, what happened?

Again -- we have nothing but vague accusations -- absolutely no facts and what claims do get investigated seem to dissolve into thin air -- as fabrications of MFNZ.

If I were you I'd be filing a OIA request on CAA for copies of complaints relating to model aircraft at Tokoroa but that can/will take 20 working days.

Hang on -- if CAA or MFNZ have *any* problems with our actions -- why have they not come forward to *US* with a list of their concerns plus any complaints and details of any law/rule-breaking?

Instead, even though we have specifically asked for such from MFNZ -- we get nothing but vague, anonymous allegations.

It smells, it smells really bad.
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Re: Everyone please look at this

Postby pldb64 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:59 am

Hi Gypsy,

Thanks for posting the links to the lists.

What is resoundingly clear from reading the majority of the posts over the last month (mostly from the last week obviously), is that that MFNZ is not standing up to answer the questions being asked of them.

Now i wouldn't expect that they would necessarily do that in a public forum, but they certainly have some significant questions that really need to be answered! If they do that with the executive of the SWMAC, so be it! But EVERYONE in this situation needs to answer for their actions.

As Bruce has indicated in at least one of his posts on the list, there is a question of natural justice that is not being met here.

If it were me, i'd be looking at the articles of association of the MFNZ and seeing if they are even complying with their own policies & procedures. All organisations must have a grievance process that needs to be complied with. Seems to have gone sorely missing in this instance.

Smells extremely fishy from where i'm sitting!
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